MR2 Championship

Hi All,

The MR2 Championship committee met by teleconference on 16th June to discuss suspension regulations for the 2010 season. On 17th July I presented the committee's proposal at the monthly RTC meeting, where they were accepted. Details are below:

Bump Stops

The committee discussed suspension regulation 5.8.1:

5.8: SUSPENSIONS:
1. Permitted modifications:
It is permitted to alter the ride height within the constraints of 5.6.1. The original suspension configuration must be retained. Uprated/lowered springs are permitted provided they are the same outside diameter as the standard coil and are made from one continuous length of wire. Non-adjustable uprated dampers are permitted provided they mount on the standard mounts. Anti-roll bars are free but must not be adjustable by driver when seated.
Adjustability of suspension geometry is limited to that provided by the vehicle manufacturer for the standard suspension. Standard chassis bump-stops must be fitted in the standard position. Standard or ‘Plastic’ suspension bushes are permitted.

Particularly the following line:

Standard chassis bump-stops must be fitted in the standard position.

In the context of the MR2 this regulation makes no sense, as the MR2 utilises a damper bump stop rather than a chassis bump stop. Competitors therefore require a clarification as to whether the bump stop forms part of the damper and is therefore free, or whether the the bump stop is a separate component and therefore should remain standard and unmodified.

A scrutineering check at the Anglesey meeting revealed that although the majority of drivers were using standard bump stops, some had been modified to increase or decrease their height, one car had no bump stops and one had polyeurathane bump stops.

The committee decided that although the bump stop is a separate component, the regulation should be updated to allow both standard and polyeurathane bump stops, subject to a minimum and maximum height. The reasons for this are that aftermarket polyeurathane bump stops should offer a significant handling improvement when cornering (which it was felt could in turn make the cars safer), and in line with the low-cost ethos of the series are significantly cheaper than the standard items.

Guidance is to be sought about the minimum and maximum heights.

Suspension

The committee discussed the recent development of custom suspension on some competitors cars in the series. The point was recognised that while these developments do not contravene the regulations it has caused concern with drivers who fear that it may lead to an "arms race" and subsequently much higher costs in order to remain competitive. This particular issue is currently only prevalent in the mk2 class.

The committee decided that following discussions with competitors and those currently supplying suspension components into the series (chiefly Rogue Motorsport and AW TrackSport) that the best course of action would be to amend the 2010 regulations to limit the suspension components to those on a pre-approved list. The following items were proposed:

Standard Toyota Dampers
Toyota / Bilstein Dampers (Black casing)
Bilstein B6 Dampers (Yellow casing)

Standard Toyota Springs
Tein S-Tech Springs
AW MR2 Race Springs

This achieves the primary goal of maintaining a comparative standard for all vehicles, while at the same time impacting the minimum number of competitors who will be required to change their suspension.

Similar regulations will be adopted for the mk1 and mk3 class in 2011 subject to feedback from competitors.

Best regards,

Patrick Mortell
Formula Official
01676 530222

Thanks Patrick,
Following the intention of what the committee is trying to achieve (which I wholeheartedly support). Can I offer the following comments to reduce possibilities of misinterpretation:

Shock Absorbers:
- Please specify whether any form of re-jetting is/is not permitted - I suggest "not".
- Please specify whether any form of internal modification is permitted - I suggest "not".

Springs:
- Please specify if any of the springs on the list can be shortened.
- The way that reads is that any spring supplied by AW would be eligible. This should specify a particular "model" or "models" of spring which have a specific uncompressed length and rate.

Best Regards
JOHN #77

Hi John,

Yes, for clarification:

- No modifications will be permitted to the shock absorbers or springs at all -internal or external.

- AW Tracksport will be producing a new spring set based on the one they made for their current custom setup, but specifically suited to the control shock absorbers. Once the specification is settled it will be published and this will be the only permitted AW spring set.

FOR SALE
##########
1 set of slightly modified std Mk2 shocks with a set of AW springs to match!!
##########



I'm all for the standardisation to be fair. But us newbies need all the help we can get!!


Just out of interest - what will be the test for 'fiddled with' damping rates?

Just for clarification, does that mean that my set up for this year (apex lowering springs with the tops cut off and standard shocks with the oil changed for thicker millers oils shock oil, a grand total of about £100 and four hours in the workshop) would not be allowed cos its not on the list? And do I need to go out and spend a grand on suspension like some have to comply? low cost motorsport?

I am pleased the issue of bespoke items is being addressed. Not so happy at the draconian restrictions on supplier. (Mark J you did warn this could happen) With so many off the shelf springs available from well known manufacturers, why are we only allowed to choose between the two brands which are sold by (sorry Patrick) in one case a competitor. Should we all be using the same brake pads as well?
Looks like I will be replacing my Eibach springs for no particular reason. Bugger...

David B.

Hi David,

TokyoDave #38 wrote:I am pleased the issue of bespoke items is being addressed. Not so happy at the draconian restrictions on supplier. (Mark J you did warn this could happen) With so many off the shelf springs available from well known manufacturers, why are we only allowed to choose between the two brands which are sold by (sorry Patrick) in one case a competitor. Should we all be using the same brake pads as well?
Looks like I will be replacing my Eibach springs for no particular reason. Bugger...

I think you've missed a couple of key points:

- No supplier of parts has been designated. You are free to buy components from whomever you wish. Standard Toyota shocks and springs can be purchased from any Toyota dealer, and Bilstein and Tein parts can be purchased from many aftermarket specialists. The only item that can be sourced from one manufacturer are the AW springs.

- Despite Mark Jessop's "warning", you should note that Mark is a member of the committee that discussed and agreed these proposals. The only controlled item on the above list that can only be sourced from one company is in fact (coincidentally) from Mark's sponsor.

- The idea behind restricting springs to a minimum number of specific sets is to eliminate the likelihood of competitors changing springs to suit certain circuits. If this became common practice then there would be a significant cost in purchasing multiple sets of springs and the potential labour cost of having them changed for each meeting.

Best regards,

Patrick Mortell
Formula Official

Not sure why my question was ignored, maybe cos it was late and it was not notised, but it is pertinant to me 'cos i am running a mk2 next year and was going to make the same mods to it as my mk1. Father is running some springs on his mk1 we had made bespoke for the car, ride hight, rate, weight of the car etc for £150 by coil springs in sheffield. Are Tein and AW more expensive than this if we have to use them on the mk2's? And if no mods at all are allowed on the shocks does this include changing the oil at a cost of about a fiver? I'm a little worried about the direction this takes us. Ingenuity is in danger of getting ruled and priced out.

For what it's worth: No offence intended (ever):

Firstly, I have nothing against ingenuity. My career depends on it!

I signed up for a one-make unmodified, production-based series because I want to compete with other drivers - not their engineering ingenuity. I would be happy if we were all driving Transit, sorry Hiace vans as long as it was they were all to a controlled spec.

It is clear (to me) that the proposed adjustments to the rules are intended to bring them back to the original unmodified spirit.

Because we have all gone off and developed our "standard" cars, this inevitably means there will be financial winners and losers if the regulations are tightened up - but importantly, it means that anyone looking to join the series will have a very clearly defined set of rules and an "arms race" of car development for what is essentially an unmodified class, will be discontinued.

Perhaps it is time to consider a "modified" class - this would be ideal for the people who are or who have access to talented engineers. If such a class was introduced, I believe it would damage the "production" class if they had to share their grids.

Best Regards
JOHN #77 [Not an engineer, I just wanna race]

Just to throw a spanner in the works... Has it been considered to use a one make CONTROLED but ADJUSTABLE damper? Would this be the best way to please the people who "just want to race" and those who like to tweak and fiddle?

It's been successfully used in the MX5 series. I was checking out the lap times around Silverstone National, and in Qualifying the first 21 cars were within 1 second of each other!!

Just out of interest Patrick, have you straw polled the paddock to find out what they are running at present?

My guess (and it is only a guess, based on one or two conversations around the place) is that there are a lot of people possibly even a majority, that are running some type of combo (all currently within regs) that would mean they have to shell out for either new springs, new shocks or both.

How is this in the spirit of low cost motorsport?

Can anyone tell me what is 'wrong' with the current set up where people can get their own springs done (see post above), change the oil in their shocks or revalve?

If you are gonna restrict the suspension, you are gonna have to either provide sealed shocks, or bench test people's throughout the season.

And another thing!!.....

The answer's probably yes, but is it healthy for an official to mandate his own springs(ETA - Just seen your response Patricj to Tokyo Dave's post so ignore this bit!!)? and that of a sponsor of another on the committee?

Andrei wrote:Just to throw a spanner in the works... Has it been considered to use a one make CONTROLED but ADJUSTABLE damper? Would this be the best way to please the people who "just want to race" and those who like to tweak and fiddle?!

Yes, it's been discussed plenty in the past and I appreciate that there are new drivers this season that won't have been privy to those debates. It boils down to this:

- Having adjustable suspension means that those drivers who can afford to test at a circuit can gain an advantage over those who can't. Now while the same could be true of drivers having practised at a circuit, this series is meant to be all about driver skill rather mechanical advantage.

- Changing to a controlled adjustable suspension package means that every single driver will have to fork out for new suspension next year. Since people are already complaining on this thread about having to change their springs - the cheapest of the suspension components - I'm sure you can imagine the uproar that would result, not to mention the accusations of lining my own pockets.

LuckyP wrote:Just out of interest Patrick, have you straw polled the paddock to find out what they are running at present?

Yes, having built a lot of cars currently racing and supplied just about everyone else I have a very good idea of what parts are being run. One of the main criteria for the parts selected was as little impact to current competitors as possible, so we picked the suspension parts that we felt were in the majority.

I know for instance that one competitor is using RSR racing springs from Japan, sourced via America. Whilst this is perfectly legal, they're not springs that are either easily available or reasonably priced. One of my hire cars is also running Tanabe Sustec gymkhana shocks and springs - again only available from Japan at significant cost (and only on the car because they came with them!).

I'd be interested to hear from anyone who will have to buy suspension for next year (ie they don't currently own components on the legal list).

LuckyP wrote:The answer's probably yes, but is it healthy for an official to mandate his own springs(ETA - Just seen your response Patricj to Tokyo Dave's post so ignore this bit!!)? and that of a sponsor of another on the committee?

The formula official is elected from the registered drivers in the Championship, and is voted into position by the other drivers. I've stood unopposed since the Championship began.

Those of you who who raced in the MR2 Challenge will remember that Roll Cages were a controlled item, and that one of the first changes I made following the split was to remove the controlled status from Roll Cages - despite being the designated supplier.

Competitors from 2008 will also remember that Team Rogue parted company with a driver who's driving standards we felt were not compatible with the MR2 Championship (they were more suited to touring cars), even though this driver was signed up for the year. This cost us thousands of pounds in lost income. If we'd been all about the money, we'd have kept him on regardless.

Three out of four committee members will have to change their suspension as a result of these proposals (Anthony and Mark, and I'll have to re-equip a hire car). So I'm sure you can appreciate they much thought was given to the alternatives. If the new AW springs turn out to be the best option, then I personally will have six cars to equip...

Incidentally, elections for the formula official and committee are held every February if anyone else wants to give it a go?

LuckyP wrote:Can anyone tell me what is 'wrong' with the current set up where people can get their own springs done (see post above), change the oil in their shocks or revalve?

Yes. Until this year, no-one has run with custom suspension setups. Once they were introduced, I received a lot of communication from drivers concerned (rightly or wrongly) that they would now have to spend a lot of money on custom suspension to stay competitive.

LuckyP wrote:If you are gonna restrict the suspension, you are gonna have to either provide sealed shocks, or bench test people's throughout the season.

No we're not. Bilstein shocks are already welded closed, but that's not going to stop people cutting them open, changing the internals and welding them shut, if they are motivated to do so. If a competitor suspects that another driver is cheating, they can lodge a formal protest to the scrutineers who will seal the car concerned and inspect it. There is a fee for this (in the hundreds of pounds) which is met by the accuser if the car is legal, and by the cheating driver if it isn't.

Finally, before anyone questions my integrity maybe you should have a think about all of the ways I could impose controls and restrictions on this series to line my own pocket but don't. I'm decreasing the requirement for people to spend money - not increasing it, and adjustable suspension would potentially mean more labour and trackside support that I could charge for. I'm legislating in the interest of the MR2 Championship here and against the interests of my own business. I'm really struggling not to take some of this personally.

WillJohnson wrote:Perhaps it is time to consider a "modified" class - this would be ideal for the people who are or who have access to talented engineers. If such a class was introduced, I believe it would damage the "production" class if they had to share their grids.

Subject to approval from the 750MC board of directors, I will be launching a new racing series next year for modified Toyota MR2s. I have already presented an overview to the 750MC Race Technical Committee who unanimously supported the proposal.

This will be entirely separate from the MR2 Championship. I have always promised that under no circumstances will modified cars ever be permitted in MR2 Championship races, and this will absolutely always be the case.

Further details will be available in due course.

I can see how you could take it personally, but I for one, and I'm sure I speak for all the others, appreciate that none of us would be enjoying the series, racing, videos, banter that the Championship provides if it wasn't for your commitment and steerage.

Please don't take my (or anyone's) debate as a challenge to your position or your integrity.

But why should a few people working within the rules to improve their equipment neccessitate a revision to the regs?

Free springs and std damper carcasses seems pretty good to me?

So - definately not taking anything away from the committee. It's a thankless task (I'm on one myself)

But is this a majority request that this reg needs to be changed?

Personal view: The success and longevity of the series is dependent on the regulations being as tight, clear and unambiguous as possible. It has a reputation for close, exciting, relatively low cost racing and needs to retain these qualities to continue to be a good entry point to motor racing - and to therefore attract new drivers each year, as others "move on".

Drafting interpretation-proof regs is another immensely difficult task. With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, if the regulations had been drafted differently, we would not have got to the position we are at now - but that has been acknowledged and is being addressed. I don't think the championship can afford to have another season where it is perceived that you have to change your suspension setup (or some other components) mid-season simply to maintain your current "standing".

If there is to be a series for modified MR2s then surely that will give the people who have the talent/resources/budget to develop their cars further the opportunity to do so? It also means that if someone has enjoyed a first season in "production" spec car, they have the basis to move on to the "modifed" series.

Best Regards JOHN #77