MR2 Championship

Oh dear, dear, dear... I thought I got over this and moved on with my life, but the emails keep coming in telling me this thread is still going

Is it just me, or do the people stirring up this whole debacle just seem to be paranoid? If someone is seriously worried about someone changing springs for every race meeting, then let's call a major review of ALL the regs, starting with the engine.

Surely the best way to win races is to have a freshly re-built engine for every race. Perhaps also a new clutch and gear box. THEORETICALLY this is all possible and within the current regs. But REALISTICALLY do we really think so? Anyone with that kind of money would be racing in British GT not MR2.

Anyway, back to suspension... In any case, the proposed regs are almost impossible to police. I note from Patrick's earlier post that the enforcement will be based on "honesty". So I can picture next year's forum posts already. We will move from "He is quick because he's got the biggest wallet"... to... "So and so is quick and winning races. Ooh, he must be cheating then!"

PS. I was passing by Silverstone yesterday and thought I'd pop in to have a look at who is there, as I knew there was a trackday evening on the National circuit -- quite a rare occasion to see this layout being used. I was really surprised to see just ONE MR2 there. So for hundred quid I am convinced that this driver has gained 1-2 seconds per lap advantage and over a 10 lap race will finish 20 seconds ahead of many other drivers. Sadly though, I expect this performance to be later attributed to his immense wallet by some of his fellow competitors (oh, and next year he would probably be accused of cheating?).

Andrei wrote:......So for hundred quid...

hundred and nineteen actually........not that I'd know.......

I am sorry I lost a couple of carefully constructed contributions to this last week because I took too long creating them… and I thought it was all over so I didn’t bother trying to resurrect them.

A few comments to set the scene as I see it: (corrections welcome – this is subjective!)

1. I believe there was a general acceptance/realisation that suspension development has (to a noticeable degree) had an effect on the competition this year.
2. I believe it has been a general acceptance that some changes to the technical regs are needed in order to avoid drivers having to spend out on redeveloping their suspension every season (or even within a season). I would like to believe it is also to allow the championship to re-focus on its original objective. i.e. a relatively low-cost one-make championship for production cars.
3. ANY changes to the regs are going to result in a number of drivers reluctantly incurring additional expenditure. Some on springs, some on shocks. Some on both. Importantly, this would be a ONE-OFF expenditure.
4. If NO changes are made to the regs, a number of drivers will reluctantly choose to incur similar levels of additional expenditure in order to try to get or stay competitive. Some drivers have the expertise to do their own engineering and thus save on some costs. Mid-season we could find that another “demon setup” has been developed and the cycle will start again. And the debate about whether to restrict the regs.
5. An announcement has been made that racing will be available for modified MR2s in 2010.

As this debate is still very much alive and Patrick has invite suggestion, here are my thoughts on the current proposed changes and some additional proposals.

SPRINGS 1 - Go for a single standardised spring set

The list of springs gives only one choice of race-developed spring. As many of us are “resigned” to upgrading to these, why not consider making them the standard? I would imagine that if this was the case, bulk ordering and therefore volume production should result in significant cost reductions to competitors.

Another route would be to issue an Invitation to Tender for a race-spec spring, suitable to be used with the control shock absorbers. From Ben’s posts and from my enquiries when I was contemplating joining the arms race, £50 a corner would not be an unreasonable target. I would prefer not to make the expenditure but I really would not object to making a ONE-OFF payment of £200 or even up to £300.

SPRINGS 2 - Go for control list of mass-produced spring sets

If we are to have a control list, follow Elliott’s repeated suggestion of a list of 3 (or even just 2) readily available mass-produced springs – such as the Tein S-tecs and Eibachs. From what I understand, they are both style springs rather than race-developed so they should yield “comparable” performance.

If it was those sets and people wanted to switch from circuit to circuit or even mix sets, I wouldn’t particularly object. As long as we don’t end up with rears fitted to fronts etc. The maximum spend you could end up making is a set of each – and it would be ONE-OFF

SHOCKS 1 - Go for a single standardised race-spec shock

Issue an Invitation to Tender for someone to produce non-adjustable race-spec set of shocks for the series. Could we get someone like AVO or Gaz on board, advertising on cars etc

SHOCKS 2 - Go for a control list of mass-produced shocks

Realistically Black or Yellow Bilsteins will be the weapons of choice – if this is the case, could this be used as leverage on price? All cars in series to carry Bilstein logos?


MY PREFERENCE – would be for the single standard race-developed spring and shock set. If I had to make a FINAL ONE-OFF spend to move to this – or any of the above proposals then I would reluctantly do it. After all, I have already gone through the upgrade to Black Bilsteins followed by the upgrade to Yellow Bilsteins… I just want to end this expenditure on developing the car. I would rather spend the money on my wife, holidays, a campervan, more racing, driver tuition….

SORRY BUT – rather than appearing to ignore points raised (and I do empathise with the cost reasons) – I am opposed to springs being “free” – (unless that means Free of Charge). And I am opposed to shocks being modified. My definition of modified is “changed to alter originally specified performance” – That would inherently rule out changing oil and or valves – or anything really. I can see that this stops the guys like Ben from making his own “cheap Bilstein” but it also stops people with more time/facilities/budget from producing exotic kick-ass units. But nothing is lost! – there will be a series for modified MR2s to race in!

So in short, it makes the MR2 Championship more about the driver and driver development and promotes a stable, level playing field.

FUNDAMENTALLY – I want (need) to KNOW that the car I start next season with is the car I can finish the season in without the need to build in a development program alongside the race season.

Best Regards JOHN #77

Oh, Alric's post actually made me have mildly warm feelings about racing a Mk3

Wow, John. I hope you had all this saved and didn't need to re-create the whole post?

Thank you for your detailed and clearly substantiated proposal. Would you mind also putting some details behind one of your opening statements?

I believe there was a general acceptance/realisation that suspension development has (to a noticeable degree) had an effect on the competition this year.

And what is the "demon setup" that you mention? I'd like to try it on my car before the regs get changed.

Thank you for clarifying these points.

I am fully supportive of your request for whatever regulations to be FINAL. You see, I thought this year's regulations were final, so in good faith I've spent my hard-earned and very limited funds to change the car (within the regs!) to suit my driving style, thinking phew, that's me done for the next few years. Oops!

Whatever the regs for 2010 are, someone needs to guarantee that they will last more than one season. I don't want to be stitched up again!

Oh nicks! Thanks Andrei - the old, but much ignored tip of creating the post in Word an then pasting it into the forum window was used! I hope the memories of the previous "lost posts" helped with this War & Peace edition!

Effect on racing: (and this bit was in one of my now legenday "lost posts"!)One of your ealier posts crystalised this - the timeline for the preceived effect on racing dates back into last season. My perception is that the racing amongst the top 6 - 7 drivers is not as close as it was last year. I will quote (hopefully accurately) Mark Jessop after his wins at Power Nights last year - "its so close, there are 7 or 8 drivers out there who could win races right now". This number has significantly reduced this season.

Demon setup: I thought I had been so careful with my wording but.... I meant "a new demon setup" rather than "another demon setup". Currently I would say any car which has stiffer front springs than my Teins has a demon setup. (remember I said this was subjective and definitately NOT accusatory!!! ). Coming off the back of my 2 recent "offs" (altering my driving syle!) I don't think you would be too keen to do a quick car-swap on the Silverstone test day?

Andrei's comment about any new final setup suiting your driving style: Realistically the answer i sthat hopefully it will not be far off - but if it is not, you know that you will then have 3? variables you can play with:
1) Your tyre pressures
2) your ARBs if you have them (unless we encompass these into the regs and go for a single model uprated non-adjustable)
3) Your driving style

One final thought Andrei has prompted which I forgot to include. If we do get into a single control spring and/or shock setup, it should be a multi-year deal with the supplier. This will:
1) Clearly demonstrate our commitment to maintaining the levellest achievable playing field
2) "Guarantee" supply - for new builds and repairs!
3) Help with price/advertising negotiations

Cheers JOHN #77

Just a thought.

I wonder how practical it would be to have an end of season suspension test day, where invied suppliers work with willing current owners - or a few of Patrick's hire cars, to produce their proposed offering of shocks and springs.

We could ALL then be invited to attend (at aminimal fee) this 'evaluation day' and be given 5 lap slots in each car to 'evaluate' the proposals. A ballot at the end could reveal the drivers favourite and this would produce the control set up that that supplier could produce?

What do we say?

What would also be handy would if we could create a list of who is running what, when they fitted it and what they changed from, then we might be able to see what effect varius combinations have had on performance.

I don't have anything to hide. I'd be more than happy to do this.

Pete

I like the idea of a single controlled suspension setup, but I think we're too far invested in the series at the moment to force every competitor to change their suspension. I'm trying to avoid the necessity of existing drivers having to spend money in order to race next year - let alone be competitive. That said, it is inevitable that there will be some people in this situation and therefore I'll try and keep that number as small as possible.

The reality will be that although we will have a control list of springs, it is likely that one type will prove to be better than the others. I would therefore expect most drivers to choose to upgrade to it.

My thinking at the moment is to expand the list of allowed springs to include similar specification major manufacturer springs that are readily available in the UK and are currently being used in the Championship David Bryant's Eibachs being a good example. That way if the new control springs are deemed to be a better solution then people will have the choice of upgrading rather than being forced to do so.

To that end - as has been suggested - I could do with a list of springs that people are currently using. Either on this thread or via PM in confidence. If I don't know what springs you are running then I cannot consider them for inclusion...

Andrei wrote:Is it just me, or do the people stirring up this whole debacle just seem to be paranoid? If someone is seriously worried about someone changing springs for every race meeting, then let's call a major review of ALL the regs, starting with the engine.

Surely the best way to win races is to have a freshly re-built engine for every race. Perhaps also a new clutch and gear box. THEORETICALLY this is all possible and within the current regs. But REALISTICALLY do we really think so? Anyone with that kind of money would be racing in British GT not MR2.

Drivers are always going to look for something, if only tyre pressures, to change, to make them go faster. Those with the most money will be able to make the most changes. In, on, and around the limets of the regs. Nothing anyone tries to do will change this fact.
But I think setting rules for situations that are somewhat unlikely, like making supershocks out of the body of a standard one or people having five differant sets of super springs that they have tested and tuned to the quirks of cadwell or where ever is, to be blunt, daft.
Patrick said that someone was thinking about changing their springs for one the races and that if they had everyone would have had to have followed suit. Only if it had worked! And even then, how would you know for sure if it was the springs? Small vairiations in the differant set up's people run don't seem to make that much differance. Roughly the same people come in about the same places at differant circuits.
I hope the rules don't get carried away and get in the way of allowing differant appraches to going racing mearly because a couple of people changed their set ups a couple of times. If its not suspension it will be wheels or roll bars or air intakes or . . . Most people cobble together a basicly race-able car and tweek it as time goes by. Ar'nt we just talking about that kind of thing? There should be limets to this of course, but do we want to stamp it out totally?

By the way, at the mo, father uses "coil springs" custom made springs, £150 from sheffield, and I use cut down "apex" lowering springs, £85 from local part shop, and they're bloody great! Really solid. I'd prob'ly be quick if the engine was any good!

buba wrote:

Andrei wrote:Is it just me, or do the people stirring up this whole debacle just seem to be paranoid? If someone is seriously worried about someone changing springs for every race meeting, then let's call a major review of ALL the regs, starting with the engine.

Surely the best way to win races is to have a freshly re-built engine for every race. Perhaps also a new clutch and gear box. THEORETICALLY this is all possible and within the current regs. But REALISTICALLY do we really think so? Anyone with that kind of money would be racing in British GT not MR2.

Drivers are always going to look for something, if only tyre pressures, to change, to make them go faster. Those with the most money will be able to make the most changes. In, on, and around the limets of the regs. Nothing anyone tries to do will change this fact.
But I think setting rules for situations that are somewhat unlikely, like making supershocks out of the body of a standard one or people having five differant sets of super springs that they have tested and tuned to the quirks of cadwell or where ever is, to be blunt, daft.
Patrick said that someone was thinking about changing their springs for one the races and that if they had everyone would have had to have followed suit. Only if it had worked! And even then, how would you know for sure if it was the springs? Small vairiations in the differant set up's people run don't seem to make that much differance. Roughly the same people come in about the same places at differant circuits.
I hope the rules don't get carried away and get in the way of allowing differant appraches to going racing mearly because a couple of people changed their set ups a couple of times. If its not suspension it will be wheels or roll bars or air intakes or . . . Most people cobble together a basicly race-able car and tweek it as time goes by. Ar'nt we just talking about that kind of thing? There should be limets to this of course, but do we want to stamp it out totally?

This is probhably the most sencible post on this thread,Ive kept out of this thread so far as at the moment i feel like pulling the plug on this season and spend the time decideing where to go and race next year away from all this!
The one thing that all you lot have not mentioned is GEOMETRY (probhably spelt wrong)which is the one thing that WILL make 2 seconds a lap (good setup over bad)The difference between shocks and springs is approx 2-3 tenths if you can drive the car in slower corners because in tight corners its slower.The bottom of the mountain at cadwell is one place where i am considerably slower this year compared to last.
You only have to walk round the paddock and look at a lot of the MR2s there are wheels pointing in all directions If you take an MR2 to your local garage for a four wheel alignment they will only try and set it to the toyota guide settings and then probhably get it wrong,the difference between a bad geometry setup and a good one as i have said can be 2 seconds a lap or even more.If you want PROOF of what i am saying look at zak,he is running yellow billies with AW springs and properly set up to suit him,yes he is an exellent driver but if the other shocks were so DEMON he would be still 2 seconds a lap down or is he lewis hamilton in disguise
regards a well p!ssed mark

buba wrote: But I think setting rules for situations that are somewhat unlikely, like making supershocks out of the body of a standard one or people having five differant sets of super springs that they have tested and tuned to the quirks of cadwell or where ever is, to be blunt, daft.

I have to disagree. At Rogue Motorsport we've already had preliminary discussions about creating a non-adjustable inverted monotube damper for use in the MR2 Championship. It would be very expensive, but while some people are constrained by budget others are not. If suspension is not controlled by the regulations then we - and others - would be required by our customers to provide the best technical solution we can.

mark73 wrote:If you want PROOF of what i am saying look at zak,he is running yellow billies with AW springs and properly set up to suit him,yes he is an exellent driver but if the other shocks were so DEMON he would be still 2 seconds a lap down

The issue here is not how much faster a custom setup is, the issue is that it is faster. To quote TF&TF - "It doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile. Winning's winning."

Yeah, let's ban 4 wheel alignment too!

Or make everyone run on the same control geometry (spelling confirmed by MS Spellcheck)!



OK, on a serious note, Mark is 100% right. It's amazing how the handling of the car can be transformed with just a few geometry changes.

And the thing is that there is no 'demon setting' that will suddenly make everyone go 2 seconds faster. What works for one driver may be completely unsuitable for another one.

Tyres is another huge factor that could be worth 1-2 seconds per lap. The more they are worn - the quicker they go.

Anyway, let's get back to splitting hairs and talking about 2-3 tenths

Andrei wrote:Anyway, let's get back to splitting hairs and talking about 2-3 tenths

2 - 3 tenths a lap is not splitting hairs... it could be the difference between overtaking the car in front or not. Over a ten lap race it's 2 - 3 seconds.

Andrei, please can you cast your eyes over your previous comments before you post. Constantly contradicting yourself is doing nothing for your credibility.

BTW, I have so far received zero requests for any other springs to be added to the control list.

Rogue wrote:2 - 3 tenths a lap is not splitting hairs...

Yes, it is... Relative to potential gain of 2-3 seconds per lap from other things we are discussing here.

Rogue wrote:Andrei, please can you cast your eyes over your previous comments before you post. Constantly contradicting yourself is doing nothing for your credibility.

Eh???

I did find your own previous posts directed at me quite offensive. But this time you are bang out of order!!!!! :x

Frankly, if this the way you want to conduct this debate, then I am not interested. It is not my style and I am not going to lower myself to personal insults.

Good luck in sorting out the mess that you have created!

Where's the popcorn smillie?