MR2 Championship

Nice deflection tactic, Patrick

But I would rather someone answered my questions first.

Thank you in advance,

Andrei

Andrei wrote:Nice deflection tactic, Patrick

It's not a deflection tactic - you must surely already know the answer to the question you're asking.

Most people reading this thread will now be thinking - Hang on! Andrei thought it was worth spending £1000+ on new suspension and now he's telling everyone else that they don't need to. Is that because he's wasted his money on something that's not improved the handling of his car and doesn't want others to fall into the same trap? If that's the case then he must be all for the reg changes, and he can always put his old legal suspension on at minimal cost.

Or is it because he doesn't want other people to have the same advantage?

There's your "arms race" in a nutshell.

Andrei wrote:But I would rather someone answered my questions first.

So you want everyone else to give out information you won't share yourself?

Rogue wrote:...Or is it because he doesn't want other people to have the same advantage?.....

What advantage?

Rogue wrote:

Andrei wrote:So as a courtesy to those of us who stand to lose financially if this reg change goes ahead , could we please disclose the details of the "arms race" perception to understand what's created it. Perhaps we could dispel some myths?

Perhaps this question would be better turned on it's head. Andrei, I understand you changed your suspension ahead of the Cadwell Park race. Can you explain why you did this? Was there something wrong with your old suspension, or did you think you would get a competitive advantage by doing so? And if you thought this - why would others think differently?......

Is that the answer Patrick? Can I read into this that it is Driver's perception of improvements that have led to the committe feeling that they should restrict changes to dampers?

I know I wasn't asked, but I'll tell y'all anyway. I changed mine after I had my failure at Cadwell May. Wanted to get a new set of shocks as I was unsure of the abuse that me and any previous owners may have given them in their life and wasn't confident in them after the failure. New set about £70 each. At the same time I had been researching stiffer springs as I thought the cars roll a bit too much (did I mention that could have been because the car had no bumpstops till Anglesey? )

So I put on these AW springs and and AW did something to the shocks to make them suit the springs (soz - don't know, never asked and I'm not so sure he would tell me anyway!).

Not £5 but not £1005 either!!

I now have a car that I feel more confident won't break and is stiffer (sometimes I feel too stiff for my liking on slow corners)

I don't have the old springs anymore......so I'm in the cost camp along with:

Andrei,
Mark,
One other of the 4 in the telconf (you didn't say who it was - I think?)
Rob Barnett
David B

And that's just the people wh have spoken on here.

Bottom Line:

I don't want to pay any more money.
I'm pretty sure others don't either.

So please can you give us an insight into what issue the competitor (s) has/have who has lead to this change of regs.

Thanks.

PS - need some disk advise mine where shaking the steering wheel out of my hand at Cadwell - will call you in a minute.

I must say I'm very surprised this has only come out now! It's been on my mind for a year now.

The main reason why I changed to a mk3 this year instead of doing another year in a mk2 was because I didn't think I could be as competative as my first year and so it wouldn't be as much fun.

The reason why? Because of suspension and setup.

I knew the people changing their suspension and becoming quicker were doing everything within the rules so theres no problems there however I did feel that by not knowing that much about suspension or knowing someone that does I had an unfair advantage as my car was only prepaired with off the shelf items.

I felt this was against the idea that it was down to driver skill.

Now I've never ever mentioned this to anyone because I just thought it was part of motorpsort and just got on with it but seen as if these rule changes are finally getting proposed for next year I thought I better shout out and say I fully support them and had only wished they had been implemented a year earlier.

Alric.

So is the issue the perceived improvement of some drivers DURING LAST YEAR?

No wonder I can't get my ahead around what the problem is then!

Perhaps I was barking up the wrong tree, and just got "caught out" with my suspension choice.

Why did I change? For the same reason I would change other things on my race car (within regs) and my driving... TO GO FASTER! I reckon the new suspension has fine-tuned the car's handling and improved the pace by 2 or 3 tenths, NOT seconds as some people may perceive, but that's what I personally was looking for. If a driver is several seconds off the pace, they should not be spending money on any part of their car - but should invest in track time and driver coaching instead. Well, based on my personal experience anyway. Last year I took my whole racing budget I had for that season and spent it on Eugene O'Brien's coaching services. Now, that's worth 2 or 3 seconds. Incidentaly, the cost of the AW Kit is less than £1,000 but it would still buy you a few days with Eugene or another leading coach.

I hope the way I've been singled out and publicly interrogated on here will assist in bringing this debate to a successful conclusion

Best regards,

Andrei

In a series where everything is so tightly controlled (in theory at least) and where expensive engine re-builds etc will return minimal laptime reductions the suspension becomes critical. That is why if this series is to remain low-cost there needs to be some sort of regulation and policing that meets these aims. I have raced with coaching for 2 or 3 seasons, albeit a number of years ago, and was a race winner. I am not arogant enough to believe I am gods' gift to racing but I am nowhere near the "front runners". I accept that if my job and finances allowed me to test I would improve in the MR2s faster, but I also believe that you cannot take a standard road going MR2 and make the FIA/MSA safety adjustments only and be competitive at the front as was originally intended. Therefore there is a need to spend extra and how much extra and on what opens the can of worms that is the "low-cost" motorsport argument. What is low-cost to some is out of reach of many others. Lets keep things simple, tightly controled and focused on driver skill not budget or engineering mastery. There are plenty of series out there for those who wish to pursue these other objectives if this is not what you are after. It was the original ethos of the series that attracted me to it and I do hope we do not stray away from it.

Andrei wrote:Why did I change? For the same reason I would change other things on my race car (within regs) and my driving... TO GO FASTER! I reckon the new suspension has fine-tuned the car's handling and improved the pace by 2 or 3 tenths

...and there's the nail smacked firmly on the head. The new suspension means you'll go two or three tenths faster a lap. So if other people want to go two or three tenths faster (and I know I do) the obvious conclusion is that they'll need to buy custom suspension. The we get to the point where we've all spent out for new suspension and we're all that tiny bit faster and there's no advantage. Collectively we've spent thousands of pounds but relative to each other we're no better off.

Then someone discovers a way to shave off another few tenths and the whole cycle repeats. Surely it's better to regulate for that eventuality now?

Andrei wrote:I hope the way I've been singled out and publicly interrogated on here will assist in bringing this debate to a successful conclusion

You haven't been singled out. You've directed comments and questions at me and I've responded. Like I'm doing now.

Ooh, I'm getting that warm feeling in my belly. That means I think this whole debate must be coming to a big 'love-in' conclusion

I have to agree with that excellent post from Rob and Alric (and Patrick reasons for introduction), a tightening of the regs will only make for closer racing. And I (or at least a LuckyP household member) will be right on 'em looking for the next way to eek out a few more tenths from the inevitable writing hidden somewhere between the lines

Now Rob, about this engine rebuilding...........

That's all from me......just off to google Eugene O'Brian....two or three seconds a lap could come in handy!!!

HAPPY DAYS!!

LuckyP wrote:......just off to google Eugene O'Brian....two or three seconds a lap could come in handy!!!

Ooh! Suit you sir! Ooh!

It seems to me the only logical next step is to say standard suspension only (which would be fine by me), otherwise the rules will be working in the opposite direction to the intended one. Non winning drivers who don't have after market springs and shocks, and newbies will think they have to buy stuff from the "list" to be competetive. And they would be correct 'cos any basicly stiffer and lower set up will be quicker than the rather soft standard set up. (The differance between differant basicly stiff set ups would be marginal I think) Cheepie mods like some cheep lowering springs and re-oiling standard shocks will not be allowed, so the only real option would be to go for "the list"

I get and agree with what the rule changes are trying to do I'm just not sure this is the way to go about it.

buba wrote:It seems to me the only logical next step is to say standard suspension only (which would be fine by me), otherwise the rules will be working in the opposite direction to the intended one.

Your logic potentially works - but only for new competitors. At the moment (to the best of my knowledge) almost all competitors are running shock absorbers that will be legal for next year, and probably half the field are running Bilsteins. If we only allow standard shock absorbers then around 50% of drivers will need to purchase replacement suspension.

The regulations for the MR2 Championship are a balancing act. It is intended to be "affordable motorsport" but too much emphasis on "affordable" compromises the "motorsport" side of things and vice versa. What I'm trying to achieve is the maximum amount of fun we can have racing these cars for the minimum outlay.

buba wrote:I get and agree with what the rule changes are trying to do I'm just not sure this is the way to go about it.

I'm open to suggestions.

I totally agree with you Patrick. I would be happy to run standard suspension, but it would be like racing a bouncy castle riding a hovercraft!! My suggestions then would be:

Springs free; I can let anyone who askes have the number of two good spring makers who will make what you want, and re-work for next to nothing if they're not what you wanted, and will make a set of springs for about £150. If somebody wants to have five differant sets of springs for five differant tracks, try and tune dampers to fit, swap it all round for each meeting and think it makes any differance, good luck!! Or you can buy from the "list"

Dampers restricted to the ones on "the list"

No external mods to shocks

No internal mods except to standard shocks in the form of mods to jets and oil.


All other proposed rule changes as set out.


A nice compromise that would accomodate most people, not head the spirit of things in the wronge direction too much, and still allow for a little fettleing.

I think I can feel that warm glow as well!. . . . . Oh no it's going cold . . . been at the computer too long

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How do you stop people having a different set of springs for each circuit?

buba wrote: If somebody wants to have five differant sets of springs for five differant tracks, try and tune dampers to fit, swap it all round for each meeting and think it makes any differance, good luck!!

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I really can't see that anyone would think it would be worth all the effort in testing, tweeking, springs mind you , so you'd have to send them off to be re-worked, test again at the same track, repete a couple of times, then on to the other four tracks or whatever? Just to fine tune for each circuit. I really can't see that it would make much differance, not as much as temperature or rubber on the track or rain. And its still only £750 for five sets!!

buba wrote:I really can't see that anyone would think it would be worth all the effort in testing, tweeking, springs mind you , so you'd have to send them off to be re-worked, test again at the same track, repete a couple of times, then on to the other four tracks or whatever? Just to fine tune for each circuit. I really can't see that it would make much differance, not as much as temperature or rubber on the track or rain. And its still only £750 for five sets!!

It doesn't need to make that much difference even just one tenth of a second a lap in a ten lap race means you finish a second ahead of where you would have done. And if everyone else is equal then you're out in front...

You only need one person to decide it's worth changing springs at different circuits (and I've had more than one conversation with drivers who've considered it) and then it becomes something that everyone has to do.