MR2 Championship

I totally agree with lucky p, Patrick, and am not questioning yout integrity and i'm not offended. I am just worried that I am going to have to shell out several hundred quid over the winter that I don't have to just 'cos I'm not allowed to do some very basic, cheap, mods. More in the spirit of things than a grand down at suspensions r us

buba wrote:...suspensions r us

He-he!!

Nearly wrote "posh halfords" Bad Ben, sorry only messin'

I agree with what John has written and am happy with the proposed clarification of the regulations, thank you Patrick, Mark, Anthony, et al. I will have to buy new springs, but mainly as I don't know what type they are and cannot guarantee that they would be legal from the proposed list. I will also (when funds allow) uprate the dampers and bump stops.

Its seems quite bizzare to me that the intention to limit spending and development on suspension has resulted in control springs where you still have a choice of 2 types of springs?

No doubt AW has developed a spring set which has benefits over the Tein springs, otherwise it wouldn't have been worth AW's time and expense to do so. Assuming there are performace gains, that then means that EVERYBODY will need to buy a set of AW springs to feel that they are on level ground with other competitors. Where's the logic in that?

If the regs need to be tightened and only allow control springs, then there should only be one spring on offer, and it only makes sense that the control spring is the one that a majority of the field use already.

If 'control' items are nessesary, then they should be just that, so that everybody runs the same spec car, and then it needs to be policed properly.

(my post on 'car handling' regarding mass produced items, may be an idea for an alternative option)
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:08 am Post subject:

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Maybe something could be written into to regs that excludes specially made and/or extensively modified components, for example, modification within the scope of the current regulations is permitted provided any parts that are used are those that are available 'off the shelf' from at least 3 seperate suppliers. ( ie, mass produced) That should give everyone some sort of options regarding set up, but exclude 'one off's' and therefore everyone has a much more level playing field. The size of the competitors budget & techincal ability then becomes much less significant with regards to getting results.

To be honest i couldn't care less about springs. As Patrick pointed out they're the cheepest part and if you want to get them from Cork via Mars and pay £50.000 good luck cos you can get them much cheeper and just as good else where. In the big picture, where people have paid three or four grand for a car in the first place this is small potatos. Shocks are another matter. There are some stupidly expensive units out there. Restrict these by all means, but how about allowing mods on standard units. Re-oiling or jetting is very cheep and easy and would mean that people wouldn't have to spend out on any particular manufacturer. Good stiff set up. Job done. Now, which way to the engine spec/anti-roll bar/driving standards arguments?!!

Ben,

I think that rejetting the std dampers is what some of our fellow competitors are concerned about.

buba wrote:..i am running a mk2 next year and was going to make the same mods to it as my mk1. ... And if no mods at all are allowed on the shocks does this include changing the oil at a cost of about a fiver?...

That's how I read it Ben. No mods at all to the shocks. A change of oil would be a modification to the shock and it's properties.

But no doubt this will be clear in the regs?

Afternoon All

I am a bit confused now Please forgive me as I am not a technical expert...

The so called "arms race" is worth £5?

And the claims that some people changed their suspension half way through the season and dramatically improved their performance are load of bull! Or have I missed something??? I've been racing with the same people since race one this season.

Anyway, can we clarify if these changes are PROPOSED or AGREED? If the latter, there's no point having this debate, is there?

I think Andrei has hit the nail on the head really. A lot of this is crap 'cos these are mr2's at the end of the day, not f1 cars. There not that finely ballenced that tiny tweeks in the suspension will make a blind bit of differance. Driving harder, cleaner, smoother, more intelligently and faster would make a lot more differance.

PS

LuckyP wrote:Ben,

I think that rejetting the std dampers is what some of our fellow competitors are concerned about.

Why? Not expensive

buba wrote:PS

LuckyP wrote:Ben,

I think that rejetting the std dampers is what some of our fellow competitors are concerned about.

Why? Not expensive

I'm not sure we'll ever find out.

Perhaps Patrick would like to share with us the complainant(s)'s concerns?

It can't be lap time benefits. Just take a look at Andrei's fastest race lap before and after upgrade - times for cadwell:

May (race 1)- 1.46.24

July (race 1) - 1.46.32

I really only think you can use seasoned competitors to evaluate the gains. My own times can't really be used to show anything as I'm just a newbie:

May (race 1) - 1.49.04

July (race 2) - 1.47.00

I guess mine have come from:

a) Track familiarity
b) Mark Hales - How to Drive Cadwell (which arrived on the doormat the day after the May race )
c) Deciding not to drive the car to and from events
d) Growing bigger gonads for Coppice!!!

Zac is another who runs with AW. Not sure what (if any) he has in the way of hardware upgrade, but his best race times were:

May (race 1) - 1.45.05

July (race 2 ) - 1.45.52

So please. Can someone illustrate for those who will have to shell out on new gear, just what exactly the issue with current reg legal 'upgraded' dampers and or springs is?

I'm genuinely interested. Genuinely.

Perhaps I have missed something?

Pete

The problem with comparing May to July cadwell is that in May the temperature was twice as hot and the track was very rubbered up, I couldn't get anywhere near my May laptime even after upgrades that worked elswhere. People I spoke to agreed the track didn't have the grip it did earlier in the year. Worth a thought!

Hm... Interesting thoughts...

Here's another one. Please feel free to ridicule me here...

Didn't Malcom aka Maxx drive a number of different cars at Snett at the start of this year and achieved similar lap times, which were good enough for pole and lap record? I understand those cars had very different suspensions. Later in the race, the owners of those cars achieved quite different lap times. So what does this tell us?

I am not being funny, but on their current form I think Mark and Zac will still be quicker than the rest of us even on LADA springs and Moskvich dampers

So as a courtesy to those of us who stand to lose financially if this reg change goes ahead , could we please disclose the details of the "arms race" perception to understand what's created it. Perhaps we could dispel some myths?

Andrei wrote:So as a courtesy to those of us who stand to lose financially if this reg change goes ahead , could we please disclose the details of the "arms race" perception to understand what's created it. Perhaps we could dispel some myths?

Perhaps this question would be better turned on it's head. Andrei, I understand you changed your suspension ahead of the Cadwell Park race. Can you explain why you did this? Was there something wrong with your old suspension, or did you think you would get a competitive advantage by doing so? And if you thought this - why would others think differently?

Andrei wrote:The so called "arms race" is worth £5?

Again, perhaps you could tell us. Did your new suspension cost £5? And if so, is there really that much of a problem in putting the old stuff back on?

buba wrote:I think Andrei has hit the nail on the head really. A lot of this is crap 'cos these are mr2's at the end of the day, not f1 cars. There not that finely ballenced that tiny tweeks in the suspension will make a blind bit of differance. Driving harder, cleaner, smoother, more intelligently and faster would make a lot more differance.

If the "tiny tweaks" don't make a "blind bit of difference" then surely it's not a problem if we legislate against them?

Andrei wrote:Anyway, can we clarify if these changes are PROPOSED or AGREED? If the latter, there's no point having this debate, is there?

The regulations are currently proposed, and have been agreed with the 750MC Race Technical Committee. They will not be set in stone until they are submitted to the MSA, so there is plenty of time for discussion.
The more opinions I receive (either via this thread or personally by email or phone) the more closely the regulations will reflect the will of the majority.