MR2 Championship

Thought i may as well start this...


Any body with any comments on the problems experienced on Sunday (and the preceding week)?

I know Rogue are looking into this and in the interests of "fair advertising/exposure" i believe AW tracksport (Mark Jessops sponsor) have a solution.


I'll start with this and look forward to your comments.



Alan Henderson had failures on his Bilstein Yellow billy struts during testing on Tuesday before to weekend (believe front right shock). The bracket which the drop link attaches to had been torn off at the weld (front only i believe).
Being parked next to him in the paddock i checked mine and found them to be deformed on both front left and right but not failed. After my accident in race 1 my inspection discovered my front left had failed. The bracket failed by breaking into 2 halves, not at the weld. This explained the progressively increasing oversteer i experienced leading up to my accident.

The current theory i heard is the combination of suspension components used by us (Yellow Billies, Tein S springs, Whiteline ARB) is not compatible. The ARB is fouling on the bodywork upon up travel and this is causing the extreme loads in the drop-link mounts. Why is this happening though? ride height too low, too short drop-links?
It does seem as though longer drop-links would help but down suspension travel will cause the drop-link to foul thus preventing full downward travel, isn't this against the regs?


AW Tracksport explained a solution which involved me getting original shocks and sending down. I would have them returned with bespoke springs and a rebuilt bespoke shock (tried, tested and raced by the double race winner himself). This sounds great but would be expensive. I won't say the price i was quoted, leave that to Mark/AW but it was a lot for a self funded amateur like myself. Especially as i just spent about £1000 on the current set-up just 2 races and 2 test days ago!!! I would certainly prefer a cheap/small mod. Even though it may not be quite so elegant or specialist.


Correct me or answer questions. Either way i hope this starts a useful thread for all.



Regards

James (car 23)

I experienced a broken LHS upper bracket on Friday in testing. Went from a lovely neutral car to 'comedy' oversteer in the space of a lap!!

Fortunately I was with AWTracksport for the weekend and was back in business by Sunday.

On investigation, the shortened springs (Tein greens) had allowed the shock to move up higher in the arch, meaning that with the std droplinks, the ARB was now fouling against the chassis just outside the bushes on each side. You can check for witness on both the bar and the arch of the chassis as it passes over the bar.

With the ARB being forced to adopt this unnatural inclined position, it no longer works as design intended and can also flip past the vertical as happened to me on the way to the circuit. A very strange sensation as described to me by Patrick, strangly enough only the day before!!

Worst bit is of course that under full load, the suspension isn't working at all, and any shock is transferred directly from tyre, to rim, to hub, to upper drop link which is pulling the ARB through the droplink against the chassis!!

Patrick, I think those of us running the std susp and shortened springs will need have a longer droplink to get the angle of the ARB back to where it a) works and b) won't break the bracket.

Thoughts?

Chaps,

The Tein / Bilstein / Whiteline combo has been used on MR2 Championship spec mk2s now for at least the last three years and we've never had this fault reported. The only thing that I can think of that may have changed is the length of the drop links themselves - what may be listed as compatible (rather than a direct replacement) for road use may be unsuitable for the specific aftermarket combinations that are being used in the Championship.

I'd be interested to know what the length of the front drop links are on James, Peter and Alan's cars and also what the front roll bars were set to. If drivers who didn't have problems could do the same then we can compare and contrast. The measurement we need is from bolt centre to bolt centre. If for any reason you want this data kept confidential then please contact me directly.

Most of the mk2s on the circuit ran the same Tein / Bilstein / Whiteline - including Zac who finished second in both races - without issue.

Don't forget that although the drop links may not be adjustable, the actual length of the link is free. If anyone wants to experiment with different sizes then please let me know and I'll see what's available.

Cheers,

Patrick

Just a thought....

Are the bump stops fitted as per 5.8:1 ?

EDM wrote:Just a thought....

Are the bump stops fitted as per 5.8:1 ?

No bump stops on the front my car.........not by design. Just as it came.

Whoops. Shocking!!!

I should add that I saw Alan's shocks - they had the stops. Dunno about James'

Ive used this combination without any problem for nearly two seasons.
However my car is currently fitted with TRD 22mm non adj ARBars.
(personal choice) It does appear that recent progression could be from
set-up within this area. Im currently considering how many more spectacular trophies i need....!

Steve

Yes Steve, I could see how impressed you were with Mark's...errr...?trophy?

Just measured the droplinks Patrick. They are 260mm, give or take 3mm.

Even just static the end arms of the ARB have about a 45 degree angle.

James do you have the (mandatory) bump stops on yours?

Pete

I have just measured the drop links from the front of my car, 255mm point to point.

I have what looks like the original bump stops fitted. The ones with the boot moulded all in one. As left transfered from the old units or supplied on prep by Rogue.


Just getting the struts repaired now having stripped the lot down. Car will go for alignment and set up as soon as i have them back but i'm keen to fix the cause.
Anybody worked a solution yet?



Cheers

James (car 23)

Has there been a final decision about the cause of this or how to fix it/stop it happening again?

Patrick was going to speak to andy at AW Tracksport last week as andy is prety sure he knew what the cause was but it seems that this has not happened so if you guys want to call andy yourselve's im sure he will share his views with you all,he did say there was a couple of cheap options to try and cure the problem but this would possibly need the help of patrick as the reg's may need ammending to allow the minor modififications (Im not sure on this as its above my head):wink:


One cure would be run medium setting on your front ARB we never suffered any problems with them on the medium setting.

AW TRACKSPORT 01507 522242

Are we drifting away from the spirit of this championship? Surely you have to set your car up within its limits. If you choose to run extreme settings you will be putting greater demands on the car, and things will start to brake and wear out quicker or behave strangely because you have gone beyond the maximum geometry the designers allowed for. As Mark said, if the front bar is set in the middle, the problem seems to go away. I am open minded with this discussion and will go with the majority, but I am concerned a problem has been "created" which is going to cost more money to "fix",and if we all do it where has it got us? No where! No doubt other shortcomings will be found in future and before you know it we'll be running bespoke items (not just suspension) and find ourselves a long way away from where we set out to be, as an easy to police low cost championship.

David B.

TokyoDave #38 wrote:Are we drifting away from the spirit of this championship? Surely you have to set your car up within its limits. If you choose to run extreme settings you will be putting greater demands on the car, and things will start to brake and wear out quicker or behave strangely because you have gone beyond the maximum geometry the designers allowed for. As Mark said, if the front bar is set in the middle, the problem seems to go away. I am open minded with this discussion and will go with the majority, but I am concerned a problem has been "created" which is going to cost more money to "fix",and if we all do it where has it got us? No where! No doubt other shortcomings will be found in future and before you know it we'll be running bespoke items (not just suspension) and find ourselves a long way away from where we set out to be, as an easy to police low cost championship.

David B.

Would you care to expand on the problem being "created"?

My problem was that in running shoter springs, the std length droplinks are too short and allow the ARB to foul the chassis - this (and the fact that I inadvertantly ran without bump stops (though JC ran his with)) "created" my failure (I say this with 90% certainty). My failure came when I was running the stiff front setting - thus creating even more interference to the chassis and the std droplink pulls the ARB to an even taller angle.

As for running within the designer's limits - I'd say the designer of the WhiteLine ARB put a set of holes in the ARB, each one to be used to explore and fine tune the handling of the car. They do have a set of adjustable droplinks. Now I just wonder if the adjustable length - specified by the designer, goes beyond the measurements taken by me and JC.....I wonder

I'll have a look at the site.

Oooh, what a surprise!!!

Description Uprated Front Droplinks - Spherical bearings.
Adjustable length. 255 to 280mm

Just watched Stavros Flatley on Britains got Talent, quality stuff! Rubbish really still I laughed.
Mr P, as I said I am open minded and the purpose of the post was to try and generate other views. Not sure the slightly condesending response was called for,still...
Clearly I am not suggesting you or others imagined the suspension failures. By "created" I am simply pointing out that in the previous 3 seasons I am not aware of any other breakages, if I am wrong I am wrong. No doubt the whiteline bars can be used in all positions with other shocks/springs but maybe not with lowered & cut ones. It is a trade off we may have to work around.
Susan Boyle was good but a bit weird
If it's a simple fix then great, but I am weary of introducing adjustable items which may lead to more track time to get to the optimum performance and simply widen the gap between the quickest and the rest who cannot give the time or money over to an arms race, me being one.
I'm off to see the rest of Britains got talent and will leave the discussion a that.
David B.